Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

Is Morality a Myth?

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Garrett

3mo

INTP
Aries

6w7

6

7

I feel like asking if morality is a myth, is an odd question. Are we talking culturally or interpersonally? This question kind of feels like it forces it to be contained in a predefined and binary definition and also opens it to many more philosophical debates. What is good and what is bad? People aren't binary and neither is the world we've created. Look at some of the historic cultural differences we've seen. I wouldn't say morality is a myth or even that it is a binding social contract, but a system defined by what is good and bad based on ones adopted rules. It's fluid and can change culturally and interpersonally. I also read some of your comments about how does free will exist if these social contracts are in place. I don't believe one correlates with the other in the same way that you might. Why would someone do something bad if they know it's bad? It's an interesting question and I think it's because of the fluidity and justification of ones "morals". I may know that murder is bad and would never just kill someone for the sake of. But if my life or my families were in danger then I would justify that murder, no longer making it bad. We could say that someone's justification for something is bad and punish them for it, but they could turn around and say that the punishment was also bad. The fact that we have murderers, rapists and bank robbers proves that free will exists. That doesn't mean that they won't be punished by their culture. I could be punished by my government for feeding the homeless, but for me that is the right thing to do and I will. Morality as portrayed, by being the end all be all of good and bad, could be a myth. But ones own internal set of rules do exist. And the difference in people's judgement is in itself what defines good and bad. I think the better question to "do we have free will?" is "are we free?". Does the "social contract" allow us to freely to act on our free will? And "if we have free will then does the social contract truly exist?" This is already getting pretty long and I wish I could continue but I've enjoyed the moments of thought. Thank you.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

Being free as it is, everyone differs based on the simpliest things. How can one define what's truly right and what's just being kind? and even that 'everyone differs' they are free to be like that but the question, 'if we have free will then does the social contract truly exist?' if i were to answer that, the only thing that binds our free will is the consequences of our actions as said to the comments above, it would mean that social constructs or any type of morality would be a matter of personal choice if obedience to the said standards are to be followed. I liked that you explained the fluidity of morals in terms of one's own environment and one's own say very much well, thank you for that.

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Kelly

3mo

ENFP
Sagittarius

Morality is a human construct. It's real, but only real in the way that any word that describes a human construct is real.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

i really have this question in mind, if morality exists why do we, humans, have the free will to choose and do whatever the hell we want even if it's right or wrong?

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Kelly

3mo

ENFP
Sagittarius

@Raizen Because humans are social animals all making choices based on their personal identity, upbringing, etc. We have come up with the idea of morality because it binds a social species together when they have shared values and feel like we can trust people to treat us fairly. But morality is a blurry concept. It is different from person to person and even with the same person their morality changes over time in response to their understanding and experiences. The problem with trying to make sense of it is there is no sense to be made. People just are.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Kelly It is indeed a blurry concept, it varies and it's constantly progressing but on the other hand, immorality does the same too, it binds people that do similarly terrible things that society wouldn't accept. these concepts are technically the same yet different in a 'moral' terms, what i don't understand is, why do we need it as a human?

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Kelly

3mo

ENFP
Sagittarius

@Raizen Because humans are a social species and it helps us work together as a society when people agree the best way to live and treat each other. If you look at wolves, zebras, and gazelles, each herd/pack also have their own norms about fairness, which is analogous to their own sense of morals. Yet norms change from herd to herd. That seems to indicate that what helps a social species is when everyone agrees, even more than the actual specifics.

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𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕣𝕝𝕚𝕖

3mo

INFP
Scorpio

5w4

5

4

Morality does exist, though it may be that we invented it. That being said, I think it's more like a type of social contract. Do the right thing, and all.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

But why are we free to choose if these construct are already been known and decided?

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𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕣𝕝𝕚𝕖

3mo

INFP
Scorpio

5w4

5

4

@Raizen Because we're human. We can choose anything that we can possibly do or believe. With those choices come depths and layers of potential consequences.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕣𝕝𝕚𝕖 i see, then theoretically if morality became a myth then humanity will quickly meet it's extinction due to the consequences of one's own actions.

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𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕣𝕝𝕚𝕖

3mo

INFP
Scorpio

5w4

5

4

@Raizen Well, it's hard to say that's true, or false. It's hard to know with any certainty that our morals don't hold us back. But that's a dark door to open.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@𝕔𝕙𝕒𝕣𝕝𝕚𝕖 everything has its limitations i think, if so morals exists then it becomes the chain to the many possibilities that may have taken a dark turn to humanity's well being. Holding us back might not be the term, maybe morality existed to guide us to a certain path or just to prolong life...

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Raul

3mo

INFJ
Pisces

5w4

5

4

No. It keeps us from getting hurt in ways no one wants while helping us enact proper judgment in the fairest way possible. Of course morals differ from place to place due to cultural norms but because of them, it’s mainly the reason for our rule of law. Morality sadly, is quietly being attacked by those who lack them and wish to do terrible things for their own gain. Religion is a main factor that dictates morals, because of this, religion is also being targeted…

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

hmm that's a fair point, i have no ill intentions but i want to know something, if religion dictates morality or is a main factor then is punishment of hell the only thing that acts as a limit/stopper for these religious people to do something bad?

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Raul

3mo

INFJ
Pisces

5w4

5

4

@Raizen Nope. At the end of the day we all have a choice to do what we want. You can still be as religious as they come and still commit the most heinous acts against other living beings. It’s the uncertainty of what comes next after we die that usually keeps most people from doing terrible things to better their chances of going to paradise rather than eternal punishment. But because we have free will nothing is really stopping us but ourselves. Personally I wouldn’t want to be stabbed by someone who just felt like it, and because of how it makes me feel, I wouldn’t do that to others either. Of course one could argue it’s also due to sympathy and empathy for one another but with morality there’s no real baseline to go off of. It’s all simply what they majority wants and based off that we follow the will of the people if we choose to be apart of it.

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Eren

3mo

ENTP
Leo

9w1

9

1

Morality is an idea based on consequences.

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2

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

Correct me if I didn't understand that properly. then by your statement, it would mean that consequences are what bounds morals, but isn't right or wrong and the ability to have a free will on such concepts are quite ironic? Every consequences may be like 'you made someone feel appeased because of what you did but you also made someone mad because what you did is wrong', the concept of right and wrong differs from everybody, if morality exists based on our own perception of the consequences that we see, then was morality is just a plain personal choice that we humans have constructed?

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Eren

3mo

ENTP
Leo

9w1

9

1

@Raizen Right and wrong are the consequences. Is an action that you committed of your free will right or wrong? That decision lies with whoever commits the action and whoever witnesses the action. That's the consequence of actions, morality. It's all subjective and based on human perception. Eventually, it doesn't matter how many people's lives are saved or ruined. The scale is infinitely growing for right and wrong. So yes, morality is just personal choice and an idea. Just like literally everything else that involves more than 1 human being

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Asel

3mo

ENTP
Leo

5w6

5

6

Whenever I get a question about whether something exists or not, I usually find the definition for that thing first. You have to ask the question that comes before the question. So I'll try to define morality, to to extent of my knowledge. For me, morality means a set of principles on which you decide that which should be done or should not be done. In Plato's republic, there are many myths which are established such as the myth of Er and the myth of people being moulded out of different metals to support and justify the systems of morality that are introduced. So in a sense, you could argue that all codes of morality are rooted in myths in the Platonist sense I guess, since our ways of looking at the world are based on various types of myths we choose to believe in. A myth in that sense, is a story carefully crafted to show what's right and what's wrong. On the other hand, when you boil it down to the individualistic level, someone could argue that morality is rooted in myth on the second definition of a myth. Which is a widely held and popular, but false belief. Because lifestyle choices, decisions and ways of thinking could be so varied between two people almost to the point of feeling alien. And most of those things are attributed to culture which, again, are deeply rooted in the myths a given culture chooses to believe, and as a result, an individual who belongs to that culture also believes in. Which may seem totally false and irrelevant to the culture of another individual. Say for example an ancient Mayan meets a modern man. The Mayan would see nothing wrong with sacrificing the man to appease his gods, and the modern man would see nothing wrong with celebrating diversity and having discussions about feminism with the Mayan. To each, the other's belief system might seem to be rooted in deep false beliefs. And that's okay. Nobody has all the answers. Plus considering which of any given two belief systems is "right" is another monumental task. So in essence, morality is both rooted in myth (the story) and myth (widely held false popular belief). I move to say that any belief we could have is never fully true because we only have so much information and understanding about consciousness and our nature in this universe. If we could fully understand a grain of sand, with all the implications that arise from it, see the whole history of how it came to be there in that desert at that time, the wars fought over that land, the people whose blood washed over it, the first cries of infants opening their eyes for the first time, the joys and the pains, I'd say we would have a better chance of establishing a worldview that is fundamentally correct. Until then, we'll all believe in our own pet unicorns. And that's okay.

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6

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

correct me if I'm wrong, so you mean it's more of a personal thing rather than a social construct that everybody is required to have??

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Asel

3mo

ENTP
Leo

5w6

5

6

@Raizen Morality is both personal and social. Personal because you choose to subscribe to a certain framework. Social because that framework is a result of that societal unit.

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1

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Asel Oh it's interconnected, hmm every person has its own morals, every person builds up a society, then these morality will be a social construct for that specific society, right? Then what would happen if two society with different set of what's right and wrong would meet? At whoms social construct/Morality is to be followed? And would there be war? or would the dominant society eat up the other?

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Asel

3mo

ENTP
Leo

5w6

5

6

@Raizen Ideally, the two societies would celebrate each other and learn from each other. They would be comfortable enough with one another to have a healthy discussion with positive and constrictive criticism. Resulting in a more sophisticated system for both sides. Realistically, all sorts of things happen. Some societies assimilate and destroy others, some survive and emerge back with a vengeance in the long run, and some societies decentralize and become nomads with deep ties to their history. So I'd say the response to any two given societies encountering one another is all very contingent on both their frameworks of morality as well as the environmental conditions that affect them. There are quite a few number of books on political philosophy that you might be interested in that give different ideas and definitions on how to approach the sort of question you have right now. I think in the most progressive sense, we try to advocate for tolerance and celebrating diversity (of both moral frameworks as well as culture) today, and in that sense, it's "hip" to be woke. But then again, there's the issue of Ukraine and the Russian war that's going on out there as well. So you have to ask yourself why people still choose to bomb each other. And why if society's that woke, a video of a Russian soldier getting shot in a bathroom cubicle gets comments that revel in the gratuitous violence. So I would say that we can have a tentative idea of what might happen if a given culture collides with another based on the contingencies of that particular circumstance. However, all the theorizing in the world becomes useless when reality hits. That's not to say we shouldn't think on these ideas, but to present the fundamentally fickle nature of reality. That being said, I'd recommend some great thinkers I think you'd like reading if you want to find better answers than what I'm offering up. Nietzsche, Freud, Spinoza, Plato, Hobbes, Adam Smith, Marx, Hardt, Negri, Derrida, all have various highly developed systems of thinking which show different approaches to morality. And I'd top it off with the idea that the best decision is the most informed one you can take.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Asel I appreciate the recommendation, I'm currently looking for those books tbh. Thank you.

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Asel

3mo

ENTP
Leo

5w6

5

6

@Raizen Glad to help! Do tell me if you end up finding something awesome

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Michelle

3mo

ENFP
Libra

No I don't think so

0

2

Reply

Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

Why is that?

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Michelle

3mo

ENFP
Libra

@Raizen People still believe it is not and try.

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Joanna

3mo

INTP
Leo

No as a myth is a story meant to explain something. Morality is a construction meant to guide society in a manner deemed acceptable.

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8

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

Acceptable of what??

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1

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Joanna

3mo

INTP
Leo

@Raizen Usually it's based on what the most powerful members of the society deem as acceptable. In modern culture marriage is "till death do you part". That was based largely on old Catholic beliefs. In ancient Celtic culture there were nine types of marriage and only one of them was for your life span. Morality is largely a social construct but it can become personal. That's the thing most people miss. You can live by a personal moral code that differs greatly from the one you were raised in.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Joanna let's expand the topic, if that powerful member of society displayed his/her morals in the society, is it has to be followed by the vast majority regardless if that morality is right or wrong? Or would you be an outcast if you value more your personal moral codes than to abide at the morals set by that powerful person in the society?

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1

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Joanna

3mo

INTP
Leo

@Raizen Easily answered since sadly we have ample proof that the vast majority of a populace will follow the morality of the powerful even in the face of proof that it is wrong. We saw it in antiquity and we see it still. Valuing a personal sense of morality is now regared as old fashion. The idea of living by a code of honor, which is in fact a code of morality, is seen as something to be scoffed at and scorned. Even though most people do live by a code of morality. It's just not one they had a hand in making.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Joanna if that's the case then, what are morals for? Is it just for us humans to be grouped in the society?? or it's just to limit us to do things that the society would scorned us for?

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1

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Joanna

3mo

INTP
Leo

@Raizen Depends. If you base your morals purely on other people's standards then it's a chain around your neck. If you put serious thoughts into it and live by a code you've created it's liberating. But, and here's the tricky bit folks, although a true moral code is personal it cannot serve only the individual; because then it becomes tyranny.

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Raizen

3mo

ENTP
Gemini

6w7

6

7

@Joanna but then, if we base our morals based on what's constructed by society then aren't we just obedient? the only thing that offsets it is having a personal code that based on to being kind to yourself first, and others afte or that's just the thought i'm currently at regarding this

0

1

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Joanna

3mo

INTP
Leo

@Raizen It is a complicated issue. Just because something is created by someone else doesn't mean it's wrong. Most of society's rules of morality have a common sense basis. "Don't steal." For instance is based in the rights of personal property and very few people would want it gone completely. Even thieves don't like their stuff stolen. This is about the way we treat others but also about the way we would like to be treated as well. Morality does and does not begin with the individual. Like I said: complicated. I do see what you mean about the obedience but you can agree with parts of society and disagree with others. I do all the time.

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Manuel

3mo

INTP
Pisces

4w5

4

5

It's a spook.

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