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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius
Morality in relation to religion

Does morality require religion to exist or can common modern day morals be achieved if religion had never existed?

8

77

Comment

Kelly

19d

ENFP
Sagittarius

All social creatures have morality. Dogs and gazelles feel guilty when they do something wrong, too. Morality is a mixture of our internal instincts and how they're shaped by our environment/culture. Religion is not necessary.

3

4

Reply

Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

Wonderful answer but now let me rebuttal your answer for sake of debate yet to also further understand your view. Do dogs feel guilty because they know they did something bad or rather because they know that what they did will get them yelled at or in trouble or even hit maybe? Do they believe that their actions are wrong or bad or do they just know that humans don't like that act and get mad at them for doing it. You may cite studies if you'd like.

0

1

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Kelly

19d

ENFP
Sagittarius

@Wilmer I don't know the answer regarding dogs but I think you could ask those same questions about humans.

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1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Kelly Exactly that's why I'm asking if morality could be naturally reached without religion lol

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1

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Kelly

19d

ENFP
Sagittarius

@Wilmer Yes, my answer is "seemingly yes" because social creatures seem to show a sense of morality without exposure to religion.

1

0

Reply

Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

1 award

You can have morality to an extent with natural law, but ultimately it is lacking without divine revelation and God

1

20

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

What morality can be obtained only through the grace and knowledge of your god? Not being condescending just want clarification i apologize if it sounds rude

1

1

Reply

Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer That's fine! I suppose as an Atheist you can recognise that natural law exists through pure reason alone. But without God there is nothing that is binding you to follow it. There is no ultimate foundation for a moral obligation to follow the moral law or live according to human nature.

3

2

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Carla

19d

INFJ
Gemini

1w2

1

2

Correct

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0

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Carla

19d

INFJ
Gemini

1w2

1

2

@Anthony WELL explained.

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1

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Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Carla Thank you 😄

1

1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Anthony Now are you moral because God told you to be or because if you don't follow his morals you are dammed to eternal suffering in hell tho? Like are you following his word because you actually want to or is it more fear of hell?

1

1

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Carla

19d

INFJ
Gemini

1w2

1

2

@Anthony You’re very welcome 😃🌻

1

0

Reply

Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer I guess both, but I don't really think of hell too often. Living a moral and virtuous life makes you happy as that's what we're made to be as humans. As Saint Augustine says, our hearts are restless until they rest in you, O Lord!

1

1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Anthony Now would you still follow the word of God and all his morals if he said that no matter what you did you'd go to hell, there is no heaven and no reward for being good. Would you still be religious? I hope you understand I'm not trying to convert you out of your religion just trying to understand your process of belief. If you feel in any way like you might question your religion please don't respond. My goal is not to destroy religion in any way it's just to understand.

0

1

Reply

Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

1 award

@Wilmer Well I don't really see the point in this hypothetical question, if God said I was predestined to hell I wouldn't be happy 😂 if you're trying to imply I only do good because I believe I'll get a reward I think that is not true. I don't really think about what I'll get out of a good deed, I do it for the sake of the other. And besides, heaven isn't earned by doing good works. Christians don't believe that

2

1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Anthony Well hypothetically questions allow you to view different perspectives and think in ways that contradict your own beliefs to better understand other people and yourself. Like for example if I was racist but claimed i wasn't because I had a black friend but someone asked me "how would you feel if your daughter married and got pregnant but a black man" and i said that I'd be furious cuz we need to keep our genes clean, it shows my true nature and allows me to see that indeed I am racist. So if me asking that hypothetical question can get you to really think for once "what if I was taught from childhood that no matter what I did that I'd go to hell? Would I be the same person I am today? Would I hold the same beliefs i have now?" That way you could understand yourself better and if you have me a true and honest answer after pondering it deeply then I'd understand whether you believe in God because you're told to and follow his word out of fear or if you truly believe he is a loving God and just and true. I'm an atheist myself but I was raised baptist and then evangelical and even tried catholic but I had too many questions that pastors would only ever answer with "well it says it in the bible" but never considered it truly wether they agreed or not and most of the time I would hear them speak of the promised paradise as insentive to believe in him but never once said "I'd follow the word of God even if I was promised hell by him. I'd love him and worship him even if eternal damnation was inevitable." They would always intise people to believe so that they can bask in the riches and glory of heaven. I attended many multiple churches and they were all very similar so I decided to seek my own enlightenment and possibly find god on my own if it's meant to be.

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1

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Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer I understand the use of hypothetical questions but I don't see how this one was particularly helpful. I am a convert to Christianity, so I was not raised to just do believe God because I was told to. I also don't understand why having an insentive is a bad thing. Anyway I'm sorry to hear your pastors were not helpful with your questions! Best of luck to you friend and God bless 🙏

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1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Anthony Well that hypothetical question gave me info I didn't know before about yourself see, hypothetical questions help you understand others. I couldn't know you were a converted one rather than a raised to be one you get. The hypothetical questions don't have to be the thing that's helpful, it's the conversation that's sprung from the question that's helpful. Thank you tho i appreciate your insight honestly

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1

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Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer Thank you! And I appreciate your calmness and lack of hostility! It can be very hard to talk about a subject like this without it getting heated

1

1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Anthony I agree lol

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0

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Douglas

19d

ENFJ
Aquarius

4w5

4

5

Oof. I don't need a God to tell me what's right and wrong nor do I need someone to ask forgiveness for. I also know this is the one life I get and after it's over and I want to be remembered for the good I did. To many people excuse their flaws with religion and skiing for forgiveness. And for the most part I have no problems with people who are religious... But saying I don't have morals because I don't have religion really frost my cookies. All the things I do such as raising money for charity and giving blood are things I've choosen to do. I've received a Humanitarian award because of who I am. Because I'm kind, caring and empathetic. Religion may have been the start of morality but its passed down from those around you.

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2

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Anthony

19d

INTP
Cancer

8w7

8

7

@Douglas Oof, did you actually read what I said? 😂

0

0

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Douglas He does believe you can be moral without being religious he just beliefs that there's a limit to natural morality compared to that gained by following the word of God. I don't think he means atheists like me or even non religious people can't be moral just that they don't have that extra push to follow those morals and stick to them. Also as for your ended it contradicts, the question is more of "would morality still exist if religion never did" kind of question, so do you believe that humans would find a way to adapt modern morals if religion never existed or played a part in humanities evolution as a species? @Anthony i don't mean evolution from apes i mean evolution as in the evolution of thought like development

0

1

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Douglas

19d

ENFJ
Aquarius

4w5

4

5

@Wilmer Yes I believe morals would have evolved without religion. And sadly these days morals seem to be going out the window.

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1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Douglas I agree and disagree cuz I believe humanity is going through a shift in which priorities, morality, and beliefs are all changing into a new phase like how it shifted during the great time of the Renaissance with like John Locke and all lol

2

0

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Tymoteusz

19d

ENTP
Pisces

Religion is based on basic moral principles. So it's other way around.

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1

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

That's a great answer honestly first time I've heard that argument from anyone else

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0

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Christopher

18d

ENTJ
Sagittarius

Well I imagine before there were true religions with rules about how to live life, people still had an idea if someone's actions were approved of or not. I'm talking 100,000s of years ago when we were simple nomadic tribes. There is evidence they still had spiritual practices but I doubt they had anything written with rules like the Bible or the 10 commandments. I would guess that at least 1 tribe's spirituality had no link to your behavior, so any idea of what was right/wrong would've come from somewhere else. If so then religion is not necessary for an idea of right/wrong.

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1

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

Yes most civilization like the Indus River Valley civilization had things they worshiped like gods but they weren't the ever so ruling gods that dictated everything but rather they blessed the people when they were given offerings and rituals in their honor were done but to them the worst possibility wasn't hell, it was just death. As an example The Code of Hammurabi was a set of morals and rules set forth by Hammurabi which was a ruler of the land and not a deity, these laid foundation to modern philosophy and morality. Most famous rule he set forth was as it's most well known "an eye for an eye"

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0

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Aaron

19d

ENTP
Leo

9w1

9

1

Is morality based in punishment? If I am immoral, do I deserve eternal punishment? If I am moral do I deserve eternal pleasure? Sounds like fabrications in order to get me to align to morals. Any human can look at themselves and see how they affect others. if that person sees the pain the cause and it doesn't hurt them, then according to society, I guess they require the threat of punishment to keep them in line.

1

5

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

Now does that mean that sociopaths and psychopaths are outliers and just lack that ability to have morals or are theirs just different?

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1

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Aaron

19d

ENTP
Leo

9w1

9

1

@Wilmer Id say anyone lacking empathy struggles with morality, because they need to be taught how they affect others, there's no internal guide.

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1

Reply

Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Aaron So in other words they are indeed outliers

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1

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Aaron

19d

ENTP
Leo

9w1

9

1

@Wilmer Sure, in one regard as a human being. I have no clue what the actual population distribution is

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1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Aaron Fair enough

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0

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Nathaniel

18d

INTP
Virgo

4w5

4

5

I think religion is probably the worst example of morality ever. Actions speak louder than words.

1

3

Reply

Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

Preach!

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1

Reply

Nathaniel

18d

INTP
Virgo

4w5

4

5

@Wilmer Thank you! The proof is all around us isn't it?

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1

Reply

Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

@Nathaniel Indeed is

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0

Reply

Tyler

18d

INTP
Scorpio

6w7

6

7

I think yes. As social animals we feel empathy and there is a survival requirement for working together. Any action that hinders the survival of the group would be considered immoral. Things like murdering a tribe member or hoarding resources

1

1

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

How about murder as punishment for murder to prevent more murders withing the tribe? Would that be considered moral?

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0

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Baby

18d

ISFJ
Libra

7w8

7

8

Moral code is instinctual, our conscience alone is enough to give us those nudges of rights & wrongs.

1

2

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

How about people who have no empathy or sympathy such as sociopaths who wouldn't have the same level of conscience as the average human?

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1

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Gary Milnes

18d

ENFJ
Aquarius

Tell me where morality is in religion, because today's religions are mostly immoral in my opinion, they are too extreme and dictative focusing more on hate than brotherly love, today the code is "love thy neighbour only if they agree with you and us"

1

1

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

I feel the exact same to be honest. Most religions now preach that every infidel (nonbeliever) is an enemy and must be eliminated or converted

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0

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Thor

19d

INFP
Taurus

Morality exists well outsides the chains of religion imo

1

0

Reply

rhys

19d

ENTP
Virgo

religion and morals are equally imaginary. you can make up your own morals, and make up your own religion independently of each other

1

0

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Alucard

19d

INTJ
Sagittarius

5w6

5

6

Requiere not realy but the concept is heavily linked. The modern codes are almost the religious ones.

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2

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

Explain

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1

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Alucard

19d

INTJ
Sagittarius

5w6

5

6

@Wilmer The morality codes are made to control the population (i mean to the make the life in society working). The power is historically linked to religion, so they can't makes rules that aren't in phase with it. And as long as our codes are the inheritance of old ones.

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0

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Goth

18d

INFP
Scorpio

9w1

9

1

I'm not religious. But I've been accused of being too moral.

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0

Reply

BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

19d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

whatever your goal is when you ask the question.. no human knows how to rule themselves or their family or their society properly. this point made, our creator sent us messengers to tell us how to be good people, good fathers/mothers/children.. how to be good citizens. yet to learn religion from respectable people rather than from a stupid guy like me.

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10

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

My goal is to understand

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2

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BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

19d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer why are you on a planet that's out of nowhere and will end anytime?

0

1

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Wilmer

19d

INFP
Sagittarius

@BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ Sadly not by choice lol.

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1

Reply

BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

19d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer you feed deep feelings and won't move of an inch unless yourself don't agree. get closer to the truth. find it with logic we all have. it's your journey. the creator of universe knows everything. get closer to him.

0

1

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BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

19d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer it actually is your choice!

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0

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Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

@BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ Who's the creator?

0

1

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BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

18d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer simple. ask the right question: you put absolutely nothing on a table. then with what there is on the table, do something. you can't. i can't. the creator, can.

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1

Reply

Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

@BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ That doesn't answer my question, I'm asking for a straight forward answer. What is the name of the creator?

0

1

Reply

BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ

18d

INFP
Pisces

8w7

8

7

@Wilmer what he always declared to be. you ask him yourself he will answet when your sincere.

0

1

Reply

Wilmer

18d

INFP
Sagittarius

@BɪɢFᴏᴏᴛ Ok

0

0

Reply

P

19d

INTJ
Sagittarius

5w4

5

4

Morality does not require religion. Simple societal rules like "treat others with respect", "don't steal", and "don't kill" are pretty easily generated based on basic empathy and forethought. People who require religion to behave properly are, more or less, waving a flag that indicates that they have problems with empathy or impulse control without an outside force.

1

0

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Aaron

19d

ENFJ
Aries

5w6

5

6

Some of the most immoral acts in history can be accredited to religion. Take the children's crusade for example.

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0

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