What do y'all think?

Question

Freewill?

Or is it all predetermined?

Luke · Accepted Answer

The debate over free will versus determinism is a longstanding one, with contributions from philosophy, neuroscience, physics, and even religion. Let's examine some of these perspectives.

In the 1980s, Benjamin Libet performed experiments that showed brain activity precedes the conscious decision to act. His study is often cited to argue that free will does not exist, suggesting that if the brain has already subconsciously decided on an action before we are consciously aware of it, then we cannot be truly responsible for our actions. However, what is often omitted is that Libet also found that while many processes are indeed subconscious, the conscious mind still has the ability to veto these actions at the last moment. He coined this "free won't" rather than free will, suggesting we are free to not do something predetermined by our brain.

In "Freedom Evolves," Daniel Dennett argues that free will is an evolutionary process compatible with determinism. He defines free will more as autonomy and self-control rather than metaphysical freedom from causation. Dennett posits degrees of freedom based on an individual's deliberation and self-control, an idea echoed by spiritualists like Eckhart Tolle and Stoics such as Marcus Aurelius, who suggest that people can achieve a "higher consciousness" through self-discipline.

Within determinism itself, there is considerable debate. Compatibilists believe that free will can exist within a deterministic framework, asserting that the complexities of human deliberation can change outcomes. Fatalistic determinists, however, argue that everything is predetermined, a view supported by classical physics, particularly Newtonian mechanics. Pierre-Simon Laplace's thought experiment, "Laplace's Demon," suggested that if an intellect knew the position and momentum of every atom in the universe, it could predict the future.

Determinism seems convincing, supported by classical physics, neuroscience, and philosophy. Even the Vikings believed everything was predetermined, as their fate was written by the Norns. However, the indeterministic nature of quantum mechanics complicates this view. While the macroscopic world follows cause and effect, the quantum realm is much less predictable. The double-slit experiment shows that quantum effects are not only indeterministic but can also communicate information backwards through time. This suggests that quantum decisions can influence their "cause" after the effect has been established, challenging the idea of causality.

Personally, I believe that we have yet to fully understand the true nature of consciousness. Our current knowledge of the brain tells us about memory formation and unconscious actions, which may appear deterministic at the macro level. However, consciousness might be an emergent factor from quantum effects, allowing for free will by enabling us to choose how our waveforms collapse through decision-making. This idea aligns with Niels Bohr's suggestion that free will exists as an emergent property of complex systems, where behavior can be unpredictable.

Looking at examples from AI and machine learning, we see similar principles. In swarm intelligence, simple rules for individual agents can lead to complex, sometimes unpredictable, emergent behaviors when these agents interact. In machine learning, neural networks are trained to make decisions based on data, and the outcomes are often non-deterministic and difficult to predict.

Bohr's stance of epistemic humility is essential here. We must recognize the limits of our understanding and accept that some processes, including consciousness, are too complex to fully comprehend. This humility allows us to keep questioning and exploring the nature of free will and determinism.

Is there free will? I don't know. Is everything deterministic? Perhaps, perhaps not. I think that the more important question here is the implications of such beliefs. Some might find comfort in predeterminism, believing that everything happens for a reason, aligning with many religious beliefs. Others find the idea of being in control of their fate essential for their sense of agency and responsibility.

Predeterminism can lead to nihilism and existential dread, diminishing the sense of responsibility in social interactions. Often patients who feel trapped by circumstances need to regain a sense of control to escape their demons so to speak.

Then there is the thought that if everything is predetermined, why should anyone take responsibility for their actions? This proposition can lead to chaos and anarchy if widely accepted.

Therefore, I don't think it matters whether or not free will truly exists, or if it is illusory. By virtue thst we are able to ask such a question in itself we should assume that it does. Our ability to question and deliberate suggests that our actions have consequences and that we are responsible for them, the ability to choose how we feel, choose how we react, even if it could be argued to be predetermined to an extent is still perspectively within our control. This perspective encourages us to act with intention and accountability, which I think in lack of concrete evidence either way is the safest assumption in which we act toward one another in the best possible way under the assumption that our actions are chosen by the self, that we are and should take responsibility for them, and that we have the ability to change outcomes in making such choices.

Personally, I believe that while many macro effects are subject to cause and effect, the universe itself is not wholly deterministic. We can make accurate predictions based on cause and effect, but many things remain unpredictable, and quantum effects play a significant role. The line between the quantum and macro worlds is fuzzy, and it is not yet clear at what scale quantum effects become deterministic in the macro world. There is yet to be a theory which unites the quantum and the macro realms as it is unclear as to why, or how, quantum mechanics collapses into traditional physics as things become more defined in what we perceive as reality. This complexity suggests that whilst we have had great success in predicting outcomes utilising traditional physics, there is always an element of unpredictability especially in the nuanced complexities of human behavior and cognition, and we are likely missing a core piece of the puzzle due to our own limited understanding and perspectives, leaving room for the possibility of free will.

Micah · Answer

It’s all predetermined. 
The entire universe is a series of infinitesimally small causes and effects. It’s like a giant chain of dominoes. Particles were only ever going to move one way. It’s predetermined by nothing other than physics. Granted, that doesn’t diminish our FEELING of choice and freedom. So revel in it.

Aster · Answer

I think it's predetermined.  But I act like it's free will.

When I believed chaos or a higher power was in control, I gave up control.  When I started looking to myself for purpose, I started regaining control.  When I look at the course of events, I can point to the triggers, the causes, the sources of all my choices.  But, when I'm in the moment, that all fades to the background and I choose the path I think will work best for me.

Ash · Answer

Some things we have some choice about. Pure determinism and freewill are both extremes of a cartoonist black or white nature, which is usually never realistic

Peter · Answer

Same bs as left brain right brain theory. Everything is nothing but gray

What do y'all think?

Philosophy Community

Some things we have some choice about. Pure determinism and freewill are both extremes of a cartoonist black or white nature, which is usually never realistic

Same bs as left brain right brain theory. Everything is nothing but gray

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